ARAPAHOE COUNTY — — Denver Post reporter Matthew Nussbaum’s updates from Day 46 of the Aurora theater shooting trial at the Arapahoe County Justice Center in Centennial, Colorado.
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Day 46
Day 46 of the Aurora trial is expected to see the conclusion of testimony from Dr. Raquel Gur, a schizophrenia expert, who has been on the stand since Monday. Gur has testified that the accused Aurora theater gunman was insane and the time of the act and could not tell right from wrong.
District Attorney George Brauchler clashed with Gur repeatedly Wednesday during a cross examination that lasted the whole day and will continue Thursday morning, Brauchler especially challenged Gur’s reports of her interviews with James Holmes, which contained a number of inconsistencies. The sessions between Gur and Holmes were not videotaped.
Holmes, accused of killing 12 people and wounding 70 in a movie theater on July 20, 2012, has pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity. If found guilty, he could face the death penalty.
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9:12 a.m.
Judge Carlos Samour Jr. entered the courtroom at 8:48 a.m.
Rebekka Higgs, of the defense, rose to argue that the hospital video of Holmes talking about hiding from shadows — which Samour ruled yesterday was not admissible — is, in fact, admissible. She cited a New York State Supreme Court opinion that admitted a defendant’s statements about delusions.
Rich Orman, of the prosecution, rose to respond.
The shadows are not a delusion, but a hallucination, Orman argued. The video represents inadmissible hearsay because it is Holmes’ own remembrance of seeing shadows.
“When the defendant attempts to introduce his own statements to his own agents … when that is the situation, that is hearsay and should be excluded,” Orman said.
“I agree with Mr. Orman,” Samour said, adding that he did not appreciate Higgs’ characterization of his decision yesterday as an argument. “The court doesn’t make arguments … The court makes rulings.”
“And my ruling stands,” Samour said.
“These statements are unreliable and untrustworthy,” Samour said of Holmes’ statements in the video.
“If the defendant wants to present … he can get on the witness stand,” Samour said. “He has the right to do that.”
The jury was brought in to the courtroom at 9:12 a.m.
— — —
9:39 a.m.
District Attorney George Brauchler resumed his cross examination of Dr. Raquel Gur.
Holmes parked behind the theater the night of the shooting, Brauchler noted, so he could change into his armor without being seen.
“He wanted to hide from them his intent or his thoughts as he went into the theater that night, you agree with that?” Brauchler asked.
“I’m not sure,” Gur said. “I see it as part of the mission.”
“The mission was to come into the theater and complete the mission to the best of his ability and it included having the armored clothes,” Gur said. “I don’t believe that he was capable of going through a deliberate process at that time, it was part of the mission.”
“You would agree that he took steps to not reveal to those who he shot” what he was doing, Brauchler said.
“He took steps to accomplish his mission,” Gur said.
“And his goal was to maximize the number of kills he could accomplish,” Brauchler said.
Holmes went in to the theater before dressing, sat down, then pretended to take a phone call and exited, but placed a clamp in the door to prevent it from locking, Brauchler said.
“He has left the impression with the theatergoers that they have nothing to fear from him,” Brauchler said.
He was on autopilot to accomplish the mission, Gur said.
“He knew what he needs to do,” Gur said.
Holmes put up a sun shade in the car while he changed into his armor, Brauchler said.
“It was his intention that had someone tried to see what he was doing that he would kill them, correct?” Brauchler asked.
“It was — yeah,” Gur said.
Holmes told Drs. Metzner and Reid that he did think it was wrong to kill children.
“Did he tell you it was wrong to kill children?” Brauchler asked.
“He did not tell me that it was wrong to kill children,” Gur said.
“Did you ask him?” Brauchler asked.
“Yes,” Gur said.
“And what did he say?”
That the people had different values, Gur said.
Holmes further told Dr. Reid that to kill a person without his or her permission was “evil,” Brauchler said.
“In each of the interviews that you had … he never discussed with you hatred of people?” Brauchler asked.
“I brought up the topic of anger and hatred of people as I was obtaining information form him,” Gur said. “He was afraid of people, he said, but he was not angry — anger or hatred to people did not motivate him to kill people.”
“I had this conversation with him every session,” Gur said.
It is not in the notes from any meetings before her initial report that Holmes was insane, Brauchler said.
Gur said in her second visit with him, she wrote in her notes that Holmes did not feel angry.
“You asked him specifically about his quote to Dr. Woodcock” in which Holmes said he hated “‘everybody’?” Brauchler asked.
“I do not recall,” Gur said.
Brauchler asked about statements Holmes made to his friend about the world needing to suffer.
“I did discuss with him his fear of people,” Gur said.
Gur mentioned Holmes’ compulsion to carry out the attack. Brauchler noted that Holmes must have controlled the compulsion until his plan was in place.
Gur obtained her information from Holmes before Holmes had been medicated and treated for many months, she said.
But Gur met with Holmes in November 2014, as well, and said his statements remained “consistent.”
“Yes,” Gur said.
Brauchler brought up Holmes’ jail cell writings.
The testimony is ongoing.
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9:59 a.m.
Brauchler began to ask about the cognitive impact of schizophrenia.
Brain function is studied in part by studying behavior, Brauchler noted, and quoted a passage from Gur’s book.
Gur agreed.
Brauchler then presented Gur with a hypothetical of someone who, after being stopped by police who see guns in his car, then buys window tinting to hide the guns — would such behavior indicate executive functions? Brauchler asked.
“I agree with you it requires planning,” Gur said.
Brauchler presented another hypothetical: a guy wants an explosion at his apartment to keep law enforcement from arriving at a theater under attack; the person does not know how to make bombs, and so researches it and builds the explosives over time; and adds magnesium to prevent the fire from being put out with water; and adds mechanisms to shoot bullets in the apartment.
Does that indicate the ability to absorb and interpret information; think multiple steps ahead; make complicated decisions; and create back-up plans?
Yes, Gur said.
Brauchler asked if leaving the theater, seeing police and deciding to surrender indicated the ability to absorb and interpret information?
“I do not see … this as reflecting high levels of executive processes,” Gur said.
Brauchler noted that Gur’s answer about Holmes’ thought process after leaving the theater was not in the report.
Gur angrily responded that she did not put everything in the report.
The hypotheticals demonstrated high levels of executive thinking, correct?
Not the third, Gur said, and it was not a hypothetical question.
Brauchler announced that he had no further questions.
Dan King, of the defense, rose to question Gur.
The testimony is ongoing.
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10:34 a.m.
“A large portion of the questions Mr. Brauchler asked you yesterday began with the phrase, ‘You would agree with me,'” King said. “Is Mr. Brauchler a psychiatrist?”
“He’s not,” Gur said.
“How long have you been practicing psychiatry?”
She completed her training in 1984, she said.
King raised the topic of the MRI that Holmes underwent.
“Tell us about the MRI,” King said.
“All is done with computer without any human interference,” Gur said. “I did not make the clinical diagnosis of Mr. Holmes based on the MRI … It is currently not a diagnostic tool for schizophrenia.”
Gur mentioned that a study she co-authored showed that MRI demonstrated 80 percent accuracy in diagnosing schizophrenia, but it is not yet a clinically acceptable diagnostic tool.
Did the results showing Holmes’ decreasing IQ lead Gur to want an MRI taken? King asked.
“Yes,” Gur said.
The existence of a CAT scan of Mr. Holmes was kept from the defense until months before the trial, King said. And when Gur saw the CAT scan, she noticed some abnormalities.
“You were asked a lot of questions about your report,” King said. “You were asked about grammar. You were asked about quotation marks. And you were asked many, many questions about when you wrote what on which piece of paper.”
Did she think her opinion would be based on those notes, or her testimony in court? King asked.
She assumed it would be based on what she said in court, Gur said,
“How many questions do you remember from yesterday that actually related to the substance of your opinion?”
Brauchler objected and Samour sustained. King mentioned how much Brauchler focused on her notes.
“Does that mean that you’re making something up and lying to this jury?”
“No,” Gur said.
“Would you do that?”
“Absolutely not,” Gur said.
King then asked about Gur’s volume of papers published.
Gur noted that she was only lead author on 6.22 percent of papers from 2005, so she is writing her own paper only once or twice a year — most of the time she is directing the writing of papers, she said.
“Did you ever believe that your clinical or scientific opinions would be presented to this jury via your notes?” King asked.
“I did not think so,” Gur said.
“Did you go through with him your notes bit by bit?” King asked, referring to Gur’s phone conversations with Brauchler.
“Yes,” Gur said.
Gur said she was trained to provide the essence in notes, not “to write voluminous pages, it is just not the practice.”
Gur takes notes to jog her memory, she said, writing down key phrases.
“It’s important to consider the whole forest and communicate briefly the major points that are pertinent,” Gur said.
Samour called the morning break.
— — —
11:38 a.m.
The jury returned from the morning break at around 11 a.m.
Before the jury returned, King mentioned concerns brought up yesterday about allowing Gur to leave by the end of the day. King requested a shorter lunch, and Samour granted the request,
King asked to show a video clip, which was played.
The clip showed a piece of Holmes’ interview with Dr. Reid, in which Reid interjected the term “indifferent” that Holmes had not previously used.
“You get significantly more valuable information when you ask the question” without inserting your own words, Gur said.
“Is there a danger or not in suggesting responses to the person?”
“Yes,” Gur said.
There were “numerous times” that Reid “suggested answers to Holmes,” King said.
King then played a clip that showed Holmes likening his hatred of mankind to someone’s hatred of broccoli — that is, an aversion to rather than a fiery hatred of.
Is an exact quotation important, or the content?
“The consistency of the content that can be expressed in different words,” Gur said.
Were there inconsistencies in Holmes’ words that made Gur think he was faking his mental illness? King asked.
“No,” Gur said.
“Are you aware of anyone that has suggested in any way that Mr. Holmes if faking” his mental illness?
“No,” Gur said.
King played another clip, this one showing Holmes telling Dr. Reid that the attack was selfish, but not necessarily wrong.
King asked about the un-medicated schizophrenic people who do not commit crimes.
“A large number of people with schizophrenia — it takes time, it takes several years for the presentation of the illness,” she said. “People can be un-medicated and psychotic before they are diagnosed.”
“Many people with schizophrenia, when they get a little bit better, take themselves off the medication,” she said.
“Fortunately, only a minority of people who have schizophrenia commit this type of act and crime. The majority do not,” Gur said.
It was difficult for Holmes to accept that he had schizophrenia, she said.
But he went to student health for help, she said.
“Is it significant” that Holmes voluntarily went “to a psychiatrist and told them” about his homicidal thoughts?
It is significant and unusual, Gur said.
“Are there those like Mr. Holmes for example that do in fact seek out treatment and take the medication that they’re given and is that what he did?” King asked. And does he still take his medication today?
“Yes,” Gur said. “The anti-psychotic medications” are helping him, she said.
“Did Mr. Holmes choose the delusions that he suffers from?”
“No,” Gur said.
“Did he find the delusions distasteful?”
“Yes, he made every effort not to have the thoughts that were intruding into his brain,” Gur said.
“In the end, did the mission overcome the desire to get well?”
“Yes,” Gur said. “It is part and parcel of the psychotic process.”
King questioned Gur about her discussions — through investigators and in person — with Holmes’ parents.
The information she got when she spoke with them was “identical” to that which she was provided by the defense, King pointed out.
“Correct,” Gur said.
The information that Holmes’ parents conveyed remained consistent, Gur said.
King then ticked through the consistency of the information with which Gur was provided.
The testimony is ongoing.
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12:18 p.m.
King asked about Gur’s first report.
She would not have submitted it if she did not have enough information at the time, she said.
Her later visits did not change her opinions about Holmes’ mental illness, she said.
Those visits, and additional information, made her opinion on his insanity “stronger,” she said.
King began to discuss Holmes’ visits to a family therapy center when he was 8-years-old.
A social worker noted Holmes was “mute” during his first visit, King said.
That is normal, Gur said. Children “many times do not talk and sit quietly, and for somebody as shy as Mr. Holmes this is quite common.”
In later visits, Holmes was far more sociable, King noted.
Is it dangerous to take information out of context? King asked.
“Yes,” Gur said.
Was the time when Holmes hit his sister when they were children a sign of aberrant violent behavior?
“I mean I don’t like it to happen,” Gur said. There was, however, no psychiatric significance to it, she said.
King asked if there was anything psychiatrically significant in Holmes’ applications to graduate school at the University of Iowa and the University of Illinois-Urbana.
“Yes,” Gur said.
Brauchler rose and asked to approach the bench. Brauchler, King and Samour huddled at the bench.
Samour overruled the objection.
“‘Do not admit under any circumstances,'” wrote one member of the admission committee at the University of Iowa, according to Gur. Holmes apparently interviewed poorly, she said.
King returned to when the Holmes family moved to southern California.
There was a significant change in Holmes’ behavior in response to that, Gur said.
King asked about Holmes’ undergraduate philosophy class.
“Are philosophical ideas often incorporated into delusions?”
They can be. Gur said, and that was the case with Holmes.
Is his philosophy class relevant to the case?
“No,” Gur said.
King began to discuss Holmes’ performance in graduate school laboratories.
Holmes’ performance decreased from the first semester to the second, King noted.
“Did Mr. Holmes suffer an academic decline … during the spring of 2012?”
“Decline,” Gur said.
“Did he get accepted into a lab or not?”
“No,” Gur said. Holmes perceived that he was failing.
“It kept him going while he was already serious mentally ill,” Gur said of Holmes’ graduate work.
His academic struggles “has affected him significantly,” Gur said.
“I want to ask you a couple questions about his romantic involvements,” King said. He noted that Holmes e-mailed Gargi Datta for her phone number.
“She asked him out,” Gur said. Asking for her number over e-mail was not a fully social behavior, she said. But he was trying very hard to be social.
King noted that Holmes basically broke off contact with Datta and other friends in the spring of 2012 once she broke off the romantic relationship.
“He also went as far as to delete their phone numbers from his phone,” King said.
“Is creating a profile on a sex site an appropriate social interaction?” King asked.
Brauchler objected and Samour sustained.
“Was he socially engaged during that time by way of those websites?” King asked.
“He was not,” Gur said.
Samour called for the lunch break.
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1:42 p.m.
Samour returned to the courtroom at 1:16 p.m.
The jury returned shortly afterward.
Samour noted to laughter that some jurors are dressed for winter while others are dressed for summer — a product of their seating location in relation to the air conditioning.
King resumed his questioning of Gur.
How could Holmes have a girlfriend and a few friends even with his social anxiety and “freezing”?
“The freezing experience was intense during high school,” Gur said. “When walking down the hallway he will feel very fearful of others.”
“Among people that he knew already … he felt less anxious,” Gur said. The anxiety would be “intense” around bigger groups of people, she said.
Why did Holmes take the selfies of himself with the weapons? King asked.
To indicate that anyone can buy guns, Gur said.
King asked about Holmes’ notebook.
Did the neatness of the notebook, and the proper grammar, have any psychiatric significance?
“I don’t believe so,” Gur said.
King asked for her opinion on the “psychotic content of the writings.”
“He provides the symbols that characterize his delusional system,” Gur said. The content is about the experiences of “his delusions,” Gur said.
“He has been writing on lines all his life,” Gur said. “But to produce the content that has no relationship to reality … it describes the depth of an extensive delusion that has permeated his life and that he has been adhering to.”
“Normal people don’t write things like that,” Gur said. “Unless they’re really sick.”
“If he’s insane, how in the world is he able to plan and carry out … such a seemingly complicated act?” King asked.
“The activities that he carried on were within his delusional system that he had to complete a mission, that once he said it it had so be done no matter what,” Gur said. “The delusions have propelled him to commit this act.”
The delusions, combined with doing poorly in school and the break up with, created “a perfect storm,” Gur said.
Is the diagnosis of schizophrenia a close call? King asked.
“No,” Gur said.
King concluded his redirect. Brauchler rose to question Gur.
The testimony is ongoing.
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2:16 p.m.
Brauchler pointed out that Gur just told King that Holmes never told her he wanted to “put people out of their misery.”
A portion of the report said Holmes felt by shooting people he “‘can rid them of their problems and put them out of their misery,'” Brauchler pointed out. So why did she say Holmes never said that? Brauchler asked.
“I must have misunderstood his question,” Gur said. She said she did not remember everything she had written. Brauchler pointed out that she seems to remember specific jail records.
“Why did you agree with Mr. King” that Holmes pulled away from his friend in 2012 when that was not true?
“Is that another detail” that you did not remember? Brauchler pressed.
“Did you understand Mr. King’s question?” he asked.
“Some of the answers that you gave on re-direct were just answering to the gist of the question, not the details of the question?”
“I don’t see the relevance of it,” Gur said.
“I bet,” Brauchler said.
“Doctor, the details are important, aren’t they?”
“It depends for what,” Gur said.
“Is it just as important to have contact” with the families of an adult as it does with children when examining the psychiatric state? Brauchler asked.
“It depends,” Gur said.
Brauchler noted that with a past defendant, who was also a young adult not living at home, Gur said it was crucial to interview the family.
“‘It is only by listening to family members … that you have this individual’s … details of reality in the family,'” Gur said, according to Brauchler.
“It’s more complex in that case,” Gur said.
“I’m sure,” Brauchler said.
Gur did not present the full picture in her report, Brauchler noted. He returned to her metaphor of separating the forest from the trees.
Gur said the trees — the details — make up the forest, and she provided the big picture.
“You saved a bunch by writing a 14-page report,” Brauchler said.
“Two board-certified forensic psychiatrists” wrote far longer reports, Brauchler noted.
“Frankly, ma’am, your ability to say nothing about your willingness” to critique Reid’s interviewing techniques are because Reid actually recorded the interview.
And he still wrote a 60-page report, Brauchler noted. Metzner’s report was 120 pages long, Brauchler noted.
“You were able to go through and scrutinize” their reports, Brauchler said.
“They did not have that ability to do that with you did they?” Brauchler asked.
“They had the ability to talk with me,” Gur said.
A short report and few notes allows Gur to say she considered everything, Brauchler said.
“Doesn’t it permit you to do that?”
“Yes,” Gur said.
“Why not just send in a postcard?” Brauchler said.
“We send reports as a standard of any evaluation,” Gur said. The report provides sufficient details that she can explain.
“You took more written notes after August of 2014 … than you did prior to writing your June 2013 report” that declared Holmes insane, Brauchler noted.
Holmes felt more comfortable in the later sessions, Gur said.
“The quotations matter, don’t they?” Brauchler asked.
“Yes,” Gur said.
And you made some mistakes?
“Yes,” Gur said.
“Didn’t you say yesterday” that she didn’t believe everything he said? Brauchler asked.
“Yes,” but it was only rarely, and only when Holmes was not fully comfortable with her.
It’s common for schizophrenics after a first break to not acknowledge that they have an illness, Brauchler noted.
“In this case, he knew he was mentally ill,” Gur said.
“This guy is not in denial about something going on with him,” Brauchler said.
“Again, the details matter don’t they? Don’t the details matter?” Brauchler asked.
“At times they do,” Gur said.
Why did Gur write in her report why Holmes’ parents took him to a therapist when he was younger if she now says the reason doesn’t matter? Brauchler asked.
Because it was a change in his behavior, Gur said,
“Remembering the details, that’s tough,” Brauchler said. “Aren’t the details of what you’re testifying to here, aren’t those important to get right?”
She sees her details as accurate, she said.
She called the University of Iowa interview performance psychiatrically significant, but it was not in her report, Brauchler noted.
“It does not,” Gur said.
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3:00 p.m.
Many of Gur’s opinions are expressed not in the reports but only during testimony, Brauchler noted.
“Yes,” Gur said.
“You had all of the exact same documents and information available to you that Drs. Metzner and Reid had available to them,” Brauchler said. But they took the time to call and interview a number of other people, Brauchler said.
And, in the end, they found Holmes insane while she did not, Brauchler said.
“Correct,” she said.
Brauchler concluded his questioning.
The jury was sent out on break and Gur was asked to step out as well. Samour reviewed questions from the jury with the lawyers.
The jurors have dozens of questions, many of which are concerned with Gur’s note-taking habits and how she reached her conclusions.
Samour will direct the questions to Gur after a brief break.
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3:36 p.m.
The jury returned to the courtroom at 3:08 p.m.
1. “How do you know what you inquired about but did not document?” Samour asked, on behalf of the jury.
“I remember the details that were provided,” she said.
2. Do you have a list of questions that you wished to ask?
“Yes,” Gur said. She asked some of the same questions she asked all of her patients, she said. She used standard questions based on a structured interview, she said.
3. Since there is no video or audio of the interviews, is it possible that she suggested answers to Holmes but does not remember?
“I did not suggest answers to Mr. Holmes,” she said.
4. The question concerned Holmes’ high intelligence
5. What does vicodin do?
It is a pain medication, she said.
6. The question concerned details about the schizophrenia diagnosis.
7. What was the diagnosis of Holmes from a thereapist he saw as a teen?
Adujsutment disorder, she thinks.
8. Why did Holmes wear so much protective gear if he thought life had no meaning?
“No meaning to life was part of his delusion,” she said. “He was afraid to die.”
9. Why did Holmes commit the murders at the Batman movie?
“Chaos,” she said. “The movie is on chaos.”
10. Is it possible that anti-psychotic medications could change the ventricle size in a person’s brain?
It is a debated topic in the field, she said.
11. Did she consider oppositional defiance disorder or autism spectrum disorders?
12. Why did she rule out other disorders?
She considered multiple disorders, but ruled them out in time, she said. There is overlap between the features of autism and schizophrenia, she said.
13. Did you discuss with Mr. Holmes what he meant in his notebook by “a dark knight rises”?
“I discussed it with him,” she said.
14. Did she consider other diagnoses?
“I considered autism … And I considered major depression with psychotic features,” she said. “The presentation was most consistent with … schizophrenia.”
15. How did she rule out other diagnoses?
Through her discussions with Holmes, she said.
16. Could some of the domains of schizophrenia appear in other disorders?
“Yes,” she said.
17. The DSM 5 mentions schizotypal disorder as a personality disorder — what does that mean?
She said the two disorders can have overlap.
18. Because Holmes always had anxiety around oral communications with others, how could it also be a sign of the onset of his schizophrenia?
People with schizophrenia typically have high anxiety before the disorder becomes apparent, she said.
19. “Could Mr. Holmes be manipulative regarding the ‘call for action’?”
“I do not believe he was manipulative,” she said. “I did not tell Mr. Holmes to use ‘call for action’ because it was the last chapter in my book.”
20. Can tests show a level of manipulation?
Yes, and he was checked, but there was no evidence of it in Holmes.
21. How could one tell when he was being manipulative?
“I did not see evidence for manipulation,” she said.
22. “What states are you licensed in?”
“Pennsylvania,” she said.
23. Does having a mental illness make a person insane?
“No,” she said.
24. As a person progresses in the illness, does that change?
It depends, she said.
25. Wouldn’t it have been important to document everything in case she had not been able to testify?
“That’s a good question,” she said. “I’d have made every effort to come … I’d have provided more explanation of my notes” and would have asked the defense to have someone else evaluate Holmes if she could not attend the trial, she said.
26. Wouldn’t documenting everything have supported her argument?
“I don’t think so,” she said. “I’d have done it the same way” if she did it over again, she said.
27. Besides the resolution on the MRI is there any other difference?
“No,” she said.
28. The question concerned a baseline for comparison.
“Yeah, it would have been helpful if an MRI would have been obtained years back,” she said. “An MRI is not diagnostic.”
29. Is someone with a serious mental illness insane?
“No,” she said.
30. How did she know Holmes was not compliant with taking his medication before the shooting?
She mentioned that the medications he was on at the time were not anti-psychotic. She also mentioned that some of Holmes’ pills were recovered at his apartment after the shooting.
31. Wouldn’t more notes have assisted her testimony?
“I referred to my notes to refresh my memory,” she said.
32. Could Holmes’ recovery from mono have had any impact on his mental health?
“Mono does not create psychosis,” she said.
33. Can someone with schizophrenia appear normal to others, including friends and family?
“It depends on the prominent features of the disorder,” she said. “It depends on the level of disclosure of the discomfort that one might feel.”
The testimony is ongoing.
— — —
4:06 p.m.
34. Can someone who has schizophrenia go in and out of delusional thinking?
“This is one of the hardest things to change,” she said. “Delusions that are fixed and elaborate … become an essential part of the person.”
35. The question concerned Holmes’ poor performance on the graduate school interview.
36. Is someone with a lower IQ not capable of having schizophrenia as severely as Holmes?
“IQ, it’s important for mental disease because it reflects brain capacity,” she said. “Most people with schizophrenia have lower IQ.”
37. Would anyone who has delusions be considered insane?
“No,” she said.
38. Do the delusions control the person or the other way around?
“The delusions are part of the person,” she said.
39. Is schizophrenia a brain disorder or disease?
Both, she said.
40. How did she make determination about Holmes’ verbal memory decline?
An evaluation demonstrated it.
41. What’s the difference between someone with schizophrenia who commits crimes with one who does not?
Those who commit crimes are more likely to be delusional, she said.
42. What is the difference between different levels of psychosis?
There are different phases, she said.
43. Can delusions change over time?
Yes, she said, delusions are complex.
44. Do you quantify delusions to determine severity?
“I look at the extent of the delusion, the complexity of the delusion,” she said.
45. Does each individual professional determine how severe delusions are?
Yes, she said. “It’s just a matter of experience.”
46. What was the primary reason she found Holmes insane at the time of the crime?
“He was not capable of differentiating between right and wrong,” she said. “He was not capable of understanding that the people that he was going to kill wanted to live.”
47. At what point in the process did you determine that Holmes was insane?
After the first series of interviews and reviewing the material.
48. Can a person who is experiencing early symptoms have their mental illness exacerbated by committing a crime that includes murdering people?
“I have to think about that,” she said. “I haven’t seen any person like that, fortunately.”
49. The question concerned the MRI study Gur discussed.
50. How does the way that Reid asked question differ from Gur’s so-called “probing”?
“I think that clinicians who interview people have different styles,” Gur said. “I talk less, especially at the beginning.”
51. Are notes she takes during evaluations an important piece of evaluating someone?
She said her notes are typically simple during clinical evaluations.
52. Why did she not record the evaluations with Holmes?
“I think that to ask the jury to look at 28.5 hours of videotape from me would have been a burden,” she said.
53. Why did Gur disagree with Reid’s and Metzner’s finding?
They put more emphasis on Holmes’ attempts to cover up his plans, she said.
54. Why did Holmes turn down some medication and free treatment?
“Mr. Holmes did not want to take anti-psychotics,” she said. “He knew anti-psychotics are given to people who have schizophrenia.”
55. Why did Gur testify that interviewing Holmes’ parents was irrelevant, seemingly in contradiction of her past writings?
“Going to California was difficult for me,” she said. “I knew more about Mr. Holmes than his mom or dad knew.”
“His parents … are reserved, quiet people, in some respects he’s similar to them,” Gur said.
56. What was the deciding factor in her opinion that Holmes did not have the capacity to know right from wrong.
“The acute level of his psychosis at that time,” Gur said.
57. Does she have examples of Holmes’ disorganized thoughts or speech?
“His speech was so terse … his speech was not disorganized,” she said. “It’s his writing … that are psychotic.”
58. Are you using actual quotes from the defendant or are you paraphrasing in the report?
“When I was taking the notes, while evaluating him, I put quotes,” she said.
59. Why wasn’t it important to take detailed notes, especially in a case such as this?
“In common practice … we do not take notes, it’s the most important thing to be totally focused on the person,” she said.
60. Was Holmes more verbal in last two interviews than previous ones?
“Yes,” she said.
That concludes the jury’s questions.
— — —
4:19 p.m.
King rose to ask follow-up questions.
“Is there any indication … that Mr. Holmes is in anyway malingering his symptoms?”
“No,” Gur said.
“Is being guarded part of his mental illness?” King asked.
“Yes,” Gur said.
Did the psychosis precede the crime?
Yes, Gur said.
How did the delusions affect Holmes’ life? King asked.
“All of the goal-directed behavior toward accomplishing the mission was the delusion,” she said.
King had no further questions.
Brauchler rose to question Gur.
He pointed out that Gur, in a previous criminal case, said she “commonly” videotapes interviews.
Brauchler pointed out that, though Holmes could pass malingering tests, he still gave inconsistent testimony to different mental health professionals.
Having a serious mental illness is not enough for insanity, Brauchler said.
“Yes,” Gur said.
Drs. Metzner and Reid are forensically trained, Brauchler said, which could explain the difference in their approaches.
Brauchler noted Holmes told Woodcock that he turned down the anti-psychotic because it would have prevented him from carrying out the attack.
Gur was released from her subpoena.
— — —
4:58 p.m.
Brauchler and King conferred briefly at the bench with Samour.
Samour announced that court will adjourn early for the day. He released the jury at 4:25 p.m., and told them to sleep in tomorrow — they will not be asked to arrive until 8:45 a.m. tomorrow.
Samour then gave the attorneys a five-minute break.
After the break, Samour delivered to Holmes the Curtis Advisement alerting Holmes of his right to testify or refrain from testifying.
“Mr. Holmes, I need to speak to you directly at this time,” Samour said. “I need to advise you, Mr. Holmes, that you have a right to testify in this trial.”
“If you want to testify, no one can prevent you from doing so,” Samour said. “In the end it’s your decision and it’s a personal decision.”
“If you were to testify, then the District Attorney would be allowed to cross examine you,” Samour said.
Holmes swiveled slowly in his chair, back and forth, as Samour spoke to him.
Jurors would be allowed to ask him questions if Holmes chose to testify, Samour said.
“You also have a right not to testify in this case,” Samour said. “If you choose not to testify, then the jury will be instructed about that right.”
“The decision of whether or not to testify is a decision that must be made by you and you alone,” Samour said. “It is a personal decision.”
Have you discussed it with your lawyers?
“Yes,” Holmes said.
Do you need more time to discuss it with them?
“No,” Holmes said.
Would you like to testify? Samour asked.
“I choose not to testify,” Holmes said.
“Is that a voluntary decision?”
“Yes,” Holmes said.
“Mr. Holmes do you have any questions for me?” Samour asked.
“No,” Holmes said.
The defense intends to rest tomorrow.
Matthew Nussbaum: 303-954-1666, mnussbaum@ or MatthewNussbaum
