ARAPAHOE COUNTY — — Denver Post reporter Matthew Nussbaum’s updates from Day 45 of the Aurora theater shooting trial at the Arapahoe County Justice Center in Centennial, Colorado.
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Day 45
Day 45 of the Aurora trial will feature more testimony from Dr. Raquel Gur, a schizophrenia expert, who testified Tuesday that James Holmes was psychotic and legally insane when he killed 12 people in a movie theater on July 20, 2012. District Attorney George Brauchler will continue his cross examination of Gur on Wednesday, after the two had a feisty exchange Tuesday.
Gur repeatedly declined to give yes or no answers, leaving Brauchler visibly exasperated. Judge Carlos Samour Jr. at one point interjected to tell Gur not to interrupt Brauchler.
Gur’s testimony is vital for the defense’s plea of not guilty by reason of insanity. If found guilty, Holmes could face the death penalty.
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9:42 a.m.
Court got off to an uncharacteristically late start Wednesday, with Judge Carlos Samour Jr. finally entering the court room at 9:14 a.m.
Samour said the delay was because he needed more time to decide on whether to admit a video recording of Holmes during his time at Denver Health in November 2012. The video shows an interview conducted by two defense investigators.
The defense moved Tuesday to admit the video, but the prosecution objected. Samour announced from the bench that he decided to sustain the objection.
The jury was brought into the courtroom shortly after Samour announced his ruling.
District Attorney George Brauchler continued his cross examination of Dr. Raquel Gur of the University of Pennsylvania.
Brauchler began by returning to the fact that Gur waited 23 months after initially interviewing Holmes to speak with his parents.
“I discussed with the defense team information that relates to early development,” Gur said. “Members of the defense team … went out in January of 2013 and obtained information from the parents including pictures, records and video that provided me with, at that time, sufficient information.”
“I was planning before to go to California, and it did not work out for me,” Gur said. She prefers to obtain information in person, she said.
Gur did not have information from the parents when she first met with Holmes’ parents. Gur noted after that first meeting, in December 2012, that she needed to speak with the parents and sister.
“There was nothing surprising, not anything new,” Gur said of the information she got from the parents when she did meet with them.
Brauchler moved to Gur’s initial report, in which she declared Holmes schizophrenic and insane.
Gur’s section on Holmes’ background was based on material she received from the defense team, Brauchler noted.
Brauchler asked about Holmes’ early verbal abilities, about which Gur spoke at length.
“By age 2 he was OK,” Gur said.
Brauchler began to ask about the move from northern California to southern, which Gur noted as a turning point.
Holmes’ parents sought assistance from a social worker when Holmes was 8 years old and was not responding well to his parents’ requests, Gur said.
The parents’ concerns were that Holmes was “non-verbal,” “Nintendo-oriented” and had social issues, Brauchler noted.
“And the behavior he engaged in was to throw toys,” Brauchler said.
“None of that — none of it — is documented in your report from June of 2013, do you agree?” Brauchler asked.
“Yes,” Gur said.
The social workers at the time thought Holmes had oppositional-defiant disorder, Brauchler said.
Holmes swiveled slowly in his chair as Brauchler ticks through his past.
Holmes applied to eight graduate schools after graduating from UC Riverside and was rejected by all eight, Brauchler noted.
He did not receive any interviews during the application process, Brauchler said.
“That’s got to be a blow to the ego, correct?”
“It can be,” Gur said.
Holmes then moved home, Brauchler noted, and played a lot of video games.
“He’s always playing video games,” Brauchler said. “And doesn’t do much else around the house.”
Holmes then took a job at a pill-coating company, Brauchler said. But much of that information did not appear in Gur’s report, he said.
Gur said such information is not necessary in a clinical report.
“You knew that you were writing this for a court, right?” Brauchler asked.
Gur stood by her decision to write the length she did.
Brauchler noted again how short the report was — less than 15 pages of content.
Holmes received an A in a class called “Ethics and the Meaning of Life” in his last undergraduate semester, Brauchler said.
His writings in that class could have been connected to the notebook, but Gur did not check, Brauchler said.
“You didn’t have that conversation with him before June of 2013 before you opined that he was insane and schizophrenic, did you?” Brauchler asked.
“Not in detail,” Gur said.
The testimony is ongoing.
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10:12 a.m.
“Did I write down every answer or every question that I asked? The answer is no, I did not,” Gur said of a conversation with Holmes about the notebook
“You didn’t even write down that subject matter in that report,” Brauchler said.
Gur maintained that the conversation took place.
Gur noted that Holmes performed below expectations in graduate school, Brauchler said.
Brauchler challenged that characterization. He then noted quotes in the report about Holmes that were not attributed to anyone.
Who were they from? Brauchler asked.
“One was form his description of his difficulties in graduate school, and by the defense team interviewing people who knew him and people who were part of the lab in graduate school,” Gur said.
Was it important who said it? Brauchler asked.
Gur said the information could be obtained from other sources.
“You described him as not doing well, uniformly,” Brauchler said.”Truth is, guy did well in all the classes that required just writing.”
“His expectations from himself — he considered his performance to be below what he wished to perform and excel in graduate school,” Gur said.
“His perception was that he is a failure. That’s the irrational part about him,” Gur said.
Brauchler hammered away on a part of the report in quotes saying Holmes “did not do well uniformly.” Gur said the statement may have come from Holmes, but Brauchler noted that it is in the third person.
Gur said she does not remember the quote, and that it could have come from Holmes and that her placing it in the third-person is because English is not her first language.
Brauchler began to ask about when Holmes asked Gargi Datti for her phone number in October 2012.
“You described him as being somewhat of a loner, even in undergrad,” Brauchler said. “You recall that he reaches out to her to get her phone number?”
“Yeah,” Gur said.
But his efforts to initiate another relationship with another woman in the program in the spring of 2012 is not documented in Gur’s reports, Brauchler said.
“This is a relationship that he initiated in mid-April, correct?” Brauchler asked. They continued to text each other until July, Brauchler noted.
“And it appears nowhere in any report or any notes, is that fair?” Brauchler asked.
“Yes,” Gur said.
Brauchler began to discuss the incident when Holmes attempted to cut himself with cardboard during a move during childhood.
“So that suicidal gesture could not have been the precipitating factor” for going to a therapist upon arriving in San Diego, Brauchler said. Holmes kept the suicidal gesture to himself, Brauchler noted, but Gur’s report said the parents were concerned about it.
“How could they have been concerned about it and not have known about it?” Brauchler asked.
“They did not know about that,” Gur said.
That part of the report is inaccurate, Brauchler said. Gur agreed.
Brauchler moved to Holmes’ relationship with his sister. Holmes hit his sister, but it is not noted in the report, Brauchler said.
Dr. Woodcock, who previously testified that Holmes was insane, met with Holmes shortly after the shooting, but Gur did not see those notes before producing her report, Brauchler said.
“I do not remember when did I get his notes,” Gur said.
“Knowing that he interviewed him, one of the things that would have been critical to you would be to have a conversation with Dr. Woodcock,” Brauchler said, but that conversation did not take place.
She tried to talk with him, but did not, Gur said.
She did not look at Woodcock’s notes, Brauchler said.
Gur said she could not remember, but believes she did look at Woodcock’s notes.
“Not a single word or reference to Dr. Woodcock appears anywhere in that June 2013 report,” Brauchler said.
“The defendant tells Dr. Woodcock on July 24” that the reason Holmes went with his family to therapy was because he hit his sister, Brauchler said.
“You certainly didn’t talk to the defendant at all about” his aggression toward his sister, Brauchler said.
Gur said she did discuss it with him.
The testimony is ongoing.
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10:40 a.m.
Brauchler noted that Gur did not speak with the professionals at the University of Colorado mental health service who saw Holmes before the shooting.
Gur said the defense told her she could not speak with them.
Brauchler pursued the topic, and Dan King, of the defense, objected. Brauchler, King and Samour huddled at the bench.
The three met for about 10 minutes,
Brauchler then resumed his questioning.
“‘I didn’t really consider them a problem,'” Holmes said of his homicidal thoughts during an early interview with another psychiatrist, Brauchler said.
“He did not disclose to Dr. Woodcock that this was a problem,” Gur said.
“It’s actually more than that,” Brauchler said, because Holmes deliberately said the thoughts were not a problem.
Brauchler then noted that Holmes consistently denied suicidal ideation to multiple therapists.
“He’s never observed by any of them to be depressed,” Brauchler said.
Gur did not ask Holmes why he stopped taking his medications in the spring of 2012, Brauchler said.
“It’s not … as I said before, my report does not include every word that I exchanged with Mr. Holmes,” Gur said. She did discuss his medications with him, she said.
“It’s not in here because you didn’t think that decision by him … was significant,” Brauchler said.
“I thought that in the total picture, based on all the information, his discontinuing the medication was not something surprising, most people — many people do that,” Gur said.
“Here’s why I’m asking,” Brauchler said. Details of the medications were described in the report, but not that Holmes chose to discontinue medication, Brauchler said.
“I did not document it in my report,” Gur said.
Gur noted the episodes in jail when Holmes jumped off the bed and ran into the wall, but not his attempts to get out of his chains, Brauchler said,
Brauchler began to discuss Gur’s initial four visits with Holmes, after which she produced her initial report.
Holmes said he wanted to socialize more in graduate school, Brauchler noted. He mentioned Holmes’ former girlfriend Gargi Datta and his friend Ben Garcia, though Gur did not speak with them.
Gur did not include conversations about Datta in her report, Brauchler said.
“It is not a transcript of every word over the hours that has taken place,” Gur said.
Brauchler noted that Datta was Holmes’ first girlfriend, and that his first sexual experience was with her, but that Gur did not note this.
“He was in love with her, correct?” Brauchler asked.
“He was,” Gur said.
“And she broke up with him?”
“Correct,” Gur said.
Samour called for the morning break. The testimony will continue after the break.
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11:27 a.m.
Samour returned to the courtroom at 11 a.m.
Before the jury returned, Samour discussed why he sustained the defense’s objection to Brauchler’s question about why Gur did not meet with Datta and Garcia.
The University of Colorado informed the defense that the two would not be available to talk to them, King said.
The jury was then brought in. Brauchler resumed his questioning of Gur.
Brauchler began to ask about Holmes’ relationship with Datta.
Holmes told Gur he was “incapacitated, lying in bed, unable to move” after the breakup with Datta, according to Gur’s notes.
Was there other evidence of this? Brauchler asked.
That is not the subject of her report, Gur said.
“I was focusing on what Mr. Holmes was disclosing to me,” Gur said.
Did you take him at his word? Brauchler asked.
“No, I did have information,” Gur said. Other sections of the report incorporated other evidence.
“Where before you opine on his sanity and diagnosis, where do you push back and ask for more details from him?” Brauchler asked, noting that Holmes was still going to the gym six to seven days a week.
“So incapacitated referred to a general increased proportion of time that was difficult for him to mobilize himself,” Gur said. “Not like he was 24 hours a day lying in bed doing nothing.”
“His experiences were that he was incapacitated.” Gur said.
“There simply isn’t any documented evidence” that Holmes was incapacitated, Brauchler said.
There was no video camera in his apartment to monitor his functioning, Gur said.
“It was his report that he was incapacitated,” Gur said. She acknowledged that he still exercised and went grocery shopping.
“I do not believe that these preclude the status of insanity,” Gur said.
“I call it being somewhat incapacitated, and that’s how he described it,” Gur said.
Gur did not apply scrutiny to what Holmes said, Brauchler said.
“No, that’s not the case,” Gur said.
“Your point wasn’t to put in everything that was important in this report but to just be a sample of the conversation you had with him? Is that what you just said?” Brauchler asked.
“No,” Gur said. “My conclusion at the end is based on all the information that was available to me at the time of writing this report.”
Brauchler asked about Gur’s description that Holmes felt a “call for action” and strategized for his attack.
“He said that he felt that he needed to develop a strategy where shooting at others will be necessary,” Brauchler said.
“Yes,” Gur said.
The phrase “call for action” came up in the report six times, Brauchler said. Dr. Metzner asked Holmes if he ever used that phrase, and Holmes said he never said that. Dr. Reid interviewed Holmes, but Holmes never said “call for action,” Brauchler said.
But during later interviews with Gur, Holmes used the phrase again, according to Gur.
“That’s interesting,” Brauchler said. “You didn’t find that interesting?”
“No,” Gur said.
The phrase never appeared in his writings either, Brauchler said.
“The only person who ever attributes that phrase to him is you, correct?”
“Yes,” Gur said.
Is it possible that Holmes never used the phrase but that it was of some significance for Gur and led her to put it in the report?
“Unlikely,” Gur said. “I mean, everything could happen.”
She thinks Holmes was more comfortable with her than the others, Gur said. That is why he used the phrase with her, she said.
“You don’t find in the record anywhere other than with you that this defendant has ever … uttered” the phrase? Brauchler said.
Gur agreed.
Brauchler presented Gur with one of her books, of which a chapter was titled “A Call for Action.”
“It has nothing to do with the defendant,” Gur said. “Totally out of context.”
The testimony is ongoing.
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11:40 a.m.
Brauchler broached the subject of Holmes’ discussions of the purpose of life.
“‘He thought he would wound some'” but not kill, Gur remembered Holmes saying in her notes, according to Brauchler.
Did Gur ever ask him about this? Brauchler asked.
Yes, Gur said, they discussed it but she did not put it in the report.
“The defendant when he spoke with you and other mental health professional still retained the ability to manipulate” the perception of what he had done, Brauchler said.
“I don’t see it as a manipulation” Gur said.
Brauchler asked if she followed up on the idea that he only sought to wound.
“I don’t write it but I discussed it with him,” Gur said.
So this was a secret she kept until now? Brauchler said.
“I did not put in my report question, answer, question, answer,” she said. “I was paying attention and conveying the information accurately.”
“It was not done in order to manipulate me to believe that he just came in to wound some people,” Gur said.
“He had the ability to try to manipulate your perception of him,” Brauchler said again.
“I don’t see it that he was sitting at that time and thinking how am I going to answer a question so she likes me more or so she thinks about me differently,” Gur said.
Brauchler asked Gur to locate in the report the incident she described when Holmes talked about becoming emotional walking through the hallways in high school.
“As I stated before I did not include specifics in this report,” Gur said. “I did not include what he told me for every component. The report is brief but provides the information that I believe is important to convey.”
Brauchler asked if she could find it in her notes.
“It is not in my notes,” Gur said. She was concentrating on interacting with him.
“Time was limited and I did not write every event, but this is clear in my memory,” she said.
“You are remembering it for yesterday, July 7, 2015, some two years and eight months after he told it to you?”
“No,” she said. “I am remembering it from the time that I evaluated it and related it to the defense team.”
“So you told them about it?”
“Correct,” Gur said.
“The only time you attribute him becoming emotional,” Brauchler said, referencing the report, was when talking about “the hurt he caused” victims and their families. Brauchler said it in a mocking, sing-song voice.
King objected and asked to approach. Brauchler, King and Samour met at the bench. Previous objections by King were repeatedly overruled.
The testimony is ongoing.
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12:06 p.m.
“The objection is overruled,” Samour said after the bench conference.
Kristen Nelson, who looked exasperated during Brauchler’s last question, spoke briefly with King.
Brauchler began to ask about Holmes’ schizophrenic symptoms, such as seeing things and hearing noises.
“I followed up and asked probing questions on every issue,” Gur said. “It is not documented … but I did.”
Gur spoke yesterday of an episode when Holmes said he saw something on the wall behind her. Brauchler asked about the episode, which appeared in her report.
“He’s having a visual hallucination right in front of a psychiatrist, that’s a big deal right?”
It can be important, Gur said.
Brauchler asked her to find it in her notes of that session.
“That he looked at the wall is not in the note that I took,” Gur said.
“Nor is the part when he points to a visual hallucination he’s having right in front of you,” Brauchler said.
Gur asked to read from her notes. She read briefly, then described the events not in her notes.
“I recall it vividly,” she said. “It can be clinically significant, but it is not a detailed description of a hallucination here.”
“That feels a lot like a visual hallucination, he is seeing things that are not there,” Brauchler said.
“It might be, he doesn’t detail it,” Gur said.
“Doctor, you did not ask him any other questions that you documented afterwards,” Brauchler said.
“I looked back, there was nothing there,” Gur said.
“Did you ask him whether he saw something?” Brauchler asked.
“Yes I did,” Gur said.
“And what answer did he give?” Brauchler asked.
“He did not give an answer,” Gur said.
“And that is not in your notes or your reports,” Brauchler said.
“That means six months almost to the day after you did not write this potential hallucination that occurred in front of you, you remembered it” for your report in which you deemed him insane, “is that true?”
Yes, Gur said.
Brauchler that she mentioned Holmes’ notebooks in her initial notes.
Gur said she had seen the notebook at the time of her first meeting, but did not have the journal with her. She did not take notes the first time she saw it, she said.
“Why not?” Brauchler asked.
Gur took a said nothing for a few seconds.
“Legally at that time, the journal was not made available to me,” Gur said, and she only reviewed it briefly.
Most of the journal was just preparation for the crime, Brauchler noted. Gur did not confront Holmes about that when he said he kept the journal to document what he was going through, Brauchler said.
Brauchler noted a quote from Gur’s report in which Holmes said: “‘Getting killed was an option, being captured was another.'”
Brauchler then pointed to Gur’s notes, in which she wrote a different account of that exchange.
“That is not what you put in your report as the quote that he said to you,” Brauchler said.
“I don’t see the difference,” Gur said. “Maybe I didn’t put three little dots between the quote.”
“You told him that he could be killed,” Brauchler said. “It’s fair to say that you created that quote, yes?”
“Yes,” Gur said.
“What other quotes did you create in the report?” Brauchler asked.
“I disagree,” Gur said.
“He never said it like that, correct?” Brauchler asked.
“It is, possibly, a combined sentence, but the words are his words,” Gur said.
“The other parts that are missing are the questions that you asked to get there,” Brauchler said.
“It does not reflect an accurate quote,” Brauchler said.
“Are there other places in your report … where you took that kind of editorial liberty?” Brauchler asked.
“I can’t recall things like that,” Gur said.
Samour called for the lunch break.
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1:55 p.m.
Samour returned to the courtroom at 1:24 p.m.
Before the jury entered, Samour spoke at length about an approximately 25-minute-long video recording of an interview defense investigators conducted with Holmes while he was hospitalized in November 2012. In the video, Holmes talked about being attacked by shadows the night before, Samour said.
“In general, I would describe the defendant’s demeanor as groggy, sleepy,” Samour said. “It appears that he may be under the influence of some drug or something.”
“The question is whether to allow the video recording,” Samour said. “I have ruled that it is inadmissible.”
Samour said he watched the video twice.
Gur’s testimony about the importance of the video was simply not convincing, Samour said.
“Just her saying it is not persuasive to me and not sufficiently credible,” Samour said, noting that no other experts attributed as much importance to the video.
Samour discussed the legal reasons for declining the admission of the evidence at length.
Samour asked if either side objected to his ruling. The defense asked if they could have until Thursday morning to respond, and Samour said that would be fine.
The jury was then brought in to the courtroom at around 1:54 p.m.
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2:34 p.m.
Brauchler continued his cross examination of Gur.
“Doctor we had finished by talking about one of the quotes you had attributed to the defendant in your report,” Brauchler said. “I want to move on to another one.”
Brauchler read from Gur’s report a quote attributed to Holmes about his “mission.”
“‘I must do it now,'” Holmes said, according to Gur’s report.
“He used the word mission frequently,” Gur said.
In all of his writings, Holmes never used the word “mission,” Brauchler noted.
“It appears from your notes that you are the first person to inject the word ‘mission,'” in the conversation with Holmes, Brauchler said.
“I believe that I was repeating the word that he said,” Gur said.
“‘An awakening, I had to do it, I must do it now,'” Holmes told Gur, according to her report.
Brauchler then referred Gur to her notes from the December meeting.
“I do not have the quote in my notes,” Gur said.
“So six months after the interview … you recalled this exchange?” Brauchler asked.
“Yes,” Gur said. But several of the words were unique so she remembered them, she said.
“Not unique enough to write down at the time?” Brauchler asked.
Gur said she did not have time.
Who put on a time constraint? Brauchler asked.
She said travel plans limited her time.
“‘When he reached the conclusion that he must answer the call to action,'” he began to order weapons, Gur wrote in her report, according to Brauchler.
“That indicates that when he began to order the weapons was about the time he felt the call for action,” Brauchler said.
“It didn’t occur at one day,” Gur said. “It was a repeated call, it wasn’t something that occurred just one time.”
“It was over a period of several weeks,” Gur said.
Brauchler read from Gur’s report a segment in which Holmes said that by killing people he was “‘putting them out of their misery.'”
Brauchler said this would be read as doing these people a favor, but Gur disagreed.
“Can you find an interpretation of it that is not a favor?” Brauchler asked.
“No,” she said, after a long pause.
Holmes purchased a gun for protection against potential intruders after his friend Hillary had the screen at her apartment cut, Gur said.
“First off none of that appears in your notes or your reports,” Brauchler said. “And you remember that independent of any notes or report from a couple years ago?”
Gur said Hillary’s experience was mentioned in messages from Holmes she read as well.
“My style of writing might not be up to par,” Gur said.
“And again, none of that appears in your report or your notes, correct?”
Gur looked at the report.
“That’s what my report meant,” she said.
The protective gear Holmes bought “was not for intruders,” Gur said.
Who was the body armor to protect against? Brauchler asked.
“Not from the people he shot … for his own protection,” Gur said.
“Why would he think the police would want to shoot him for doing these people a favor?” Brauchler asked.
“I mean he was going as part of his mission to shoot people and there were two possibilities, the possibility that he will get killed … or that he will be captured,” Gur said.
“Did you ask him why he thought he would either be shot and killed or captured for doing this favor for the people in the theater?”
“This is part of his delusions,” Gur said. “But he was aware and prepared himself to be killed.”
“He knew that those people would perceive his actions as wrong and worthy of killing him or stopping him?” Brauchler asked.
“He knew that what he was doing was illegal, but he did not in his state of mind, he did not have the capacity to distinguish between right and wrong,” she said. “He did not have the capacity to do that.”
But he knew police officers would think it was wrong? Brauchler asked.
“Was illegal,” Gur said. “He knew it was illegal and that police officers will shoot him for committing this act. But, I do not infer from that that he was at that time at the state of mind distinguishing right from wrong.”
“Speeding down the road is also illegal … and nobody would expect that the police would try to shoot them for driving down the road?” Brauchler asked.
The defense objected and Samour sustained the objection.
“Doctor, it’s not like he said I need this body armor to protect me from this crowd of people in the theater he was going to shoot,” Brauchler said. He needed it only for the police, Brauchler said.
“He did not say that he obtained the protective gear in order for people not to jump him,” Gur said.
“‘When looking in the mirror he saw another guy,'” Brauchler read from Gur’s report.”‘A master power had taken over.'”
The phrase “master power” appears only once, Brauchler noted.
“This is not what I intended to convey,” Gur said. Holmes saw someone who was not him in the mirror, Gur said.
“You’d agree that the phrase a master power is one that he came up with, not you?” Brauchler said. He then pointed out the phrase appeared nowhere else.
“It only appears in your June 2013 report where you find him schizophrenic and insane,” Brauchler said.
Holmes told Dr. Woodcock he had no thoughts of control four days after the shooting, Brauchler noted.
Holmes’ words about the world coming to an end in her report also appear nowhere else in the evidence, Brauchler pointed out.
Brauchler noted that Holmes’ words about the world coming to an end were scratched out and changed in Gur’s notes.
Brauchler then directed Gur back to her report, to a discussion of Holmes seeing shadows in his laboratory.
The testimony is ongoing.
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3:01 p.m.
Brauchler referred Gur to her notes from her last meeting with Holmes before she produced the initial report.
“He never tells you anything like I get one point per life, did he?” Brauchler asked.
Gur did not answer the question, saying she reviewed the notebook with Holmes in which he said each person killed was worth one point.
“I do not recall that he said it is one for one,” Gur said.
Brauchler referenced Holmes’ idea that by killing he incorporated people’s future potential.
“Children are worth more because they have more future potential,” Brauchler said.
Correct, Gur said.
“‘He now realizes that this was crazy,'” Gur wrote in her report.
She said Tuesday that other people saw it as crazy, but he still believed it.
“That is not what your report says,” Brauchler said.
“This is what it means,” Gur said. “He realizes that this was crazy in my eyes and in the eyes of other people.”
“Doctor, you would agree with me that the entire couple paragraphs of exchange … is absolutely absent” from the notes and report, Brauchler said.
“I agree that my notes are brief,” Gur said.
Brauchler began again to point out that such an exchange is missing from the report, but King objected. King, Brauchler and Samour met at the bench.
Samour overruled the objection.
“The quote as it is written in your report … reads …’He now realizes that this is crazy,'” Brauchler said. One would assume that this means Holmes himself thinks the belief is crazy? Brauchler asked.
This is what he believes others think, Gur said.
So the passage is misleading? Brauchler asked.
“I will not call it misleading,” Gur said. “I don’t see it as misleading on my part. Maybe not explaining sufficiently.”
“‘He came to believe he was commanded to act,'” Brauchler read from Gur’s report.
“What was the ‘inevitable catastrophe'” that the passage referred to? Brauchler asked.
“He believed that the world was going to come to an end,” Gur said.
“Did he tell you when?” Brauchler asked.
“There was no date on it, no,” Gur said.
“You’d agree, too, that he does not repeat that nihilistic” view to anyone else? Brauchler asked.
“I can’t tell you specifically,” Gur said. “I say it’s possible, I can’t remember.”
“‘He fully believed that the victims were not substantively harmed,'” Brauchler read from Gur’s report.
“He knew that he was killing people,” Gur said.
He had the capacity to know that he was killing people? Brauchler asked.
“No,” Gur said.
Brauchler asked Gur if she spoke with Holmes about his Google chats with his former girlfriend, Gargi Datta.
Gur said she did.
Brauchler pushed, stating there is only one reference to it in notes.
“There is no other discussion you had with him about the language that he used?”
Gur said that is correct.
“I did explore it with him, but if you ask did I document it here in my writing the answer is no,” Gur said.
“But it doesn’t appear anywhere?”
“Correct,” Gur said.
Brauchler discussed Holmes’ preparations to flee after the crime, noting such plans are not in the notes or the report.
“Does it feel like to you doctor that had this been videotaped we wouldn’t have all these questions?” Brauchler asked.
“Perhaps, I think that there would have been other action. ..’Your accent is not clear’ … I think you’d have had other questions for me,” Gur said.
“What he tells you is, ‘Killing others is not fair to them,'” Brauchler said, referencing a meeting Gur had with Holmes.
Holmes told Gur he could not have committed the act had he known the people he would be killing, Brauchler said.
Correct, Gur said.
The testimony is ongoing.
— — —
3:08 p.m.
“Doctor, nowhere in your notes, nowhere in your report do you indicate that you went over the notebook with the defendant, correct?” Brauchler asked.
“It is indicated,” Gur said, adding she would check. She said she did not document the first time she went over the report with him.
Holmes used the word “murder” or “murderer” eight times in the notebook, Brauchler said.
Gur used the word zero times in her notes or report, Brauchler said.
Gur agreed.
Holmes used the word “hate” or “hatred” eight times in his notebook, Brauchler said.
“It was not motivated by hatred,” Gur said.
“I know that I used the word that he denied or didn’t say that it was for hatred,” Gur said.
Samour called the afternoon break.
— — —
3:49 p.m.
Before the jury returned, King asked how much more time Brauchler would need because Gur plans to fly home Thursday evening for a family obligation.
Brauchler said he will likely finish his cross examination by the end of the day.
The jury returned and Brauchler continued his questioning.
“You did not in your report include the use of the term evil, either in your notes or your report?” Brauchler said.
“I believe I didn’t,” Gur said.
Brauchler ran through other words from the notebook — “justice,” “serial killer,” “mass murder” — that were not in Gur’s report.
Brauchler began what he called a “lightning round” of topics Gur may or may not have reviewed with Holmes before Gur produced her June 2013 report.
Making bombs, Brauchler mentioned as the first topic.
She asked about, but it was not in the notes or report.
Setting up his apartment with traps, Brauchler said.
They talked about it, but it was not in the notes or report, Gur said.
Scouting movie theaters.
It was discussed, but not recorded in notes or the report, Gur said.
Choice of different weapons.
It was discussed, but not recorded in the notes or report, Gur said.
Choice of body armor.
It was discussed, but not recorded in notes or the report, Gur said.
The selfies Holmes took of himself.
It was discussed, but not recorded in the notes or report, Gur said.
“Do you know what he was going to do with those selfies, doctor?” Brauchler asked.
To show ease of getting weapons, Gur said.
Holmes’ plan to send the pictures to The New York Times.
It was discussed, but not recorded in the notes or report, Gur said.
Holmes’ intentions with another website.
It was discussed, but not recorded in the notes or report, Gur said.
Holmes’ phone call to CU health before the shooting.
It was discussed, but not recorded in the notes or report, Gur said.
“There’s nothing in the notes or your report about how he felt shooting a 6-year-old girl four times,” Brauchler said.
“I did talk to him before and this was part of him getting emotional,” Gur said. “But I did not go into the children specifically.”
“But you recall going through with him killing a child?”
“Yes,” Gur said.
The black contact lenses he purchased.
It was discussed, but not recorded in the notes or report, Gur said.
Why he shot at people who were fleeing the theater, Brauchler said.
It was discussed, but not recorded in the notes or report, Gur said.
“It was part of the mission of killing people in the theater,” Brauchler said.
Why he needed tear gas.
“He didn’t use the tear gas,” Gur said.
“He did not use the tear gas, that’s your recollection?”
“He purchased the tear gas as part of completing his mission,” Gur said.
How often he went to the gun range.
It was discussed, but not recorded in the notes or report, Gur said.
His need for steel-penetrating bullets.
It was discussed, but not recorded in the notes or report, Gur said.
His thought process of going through the airport as a potential venue for mass murder.
It was discussed, but not recorded in the notes or report, Gur said.
The alteration of different weapons.
Gur did not discuss that with him, she said.
The testimony is ongoing.
— — —
4:12 p.m.
Brauchler continued the “lighting round.”
“He didn’t want to be able to see the stuff he was doing even though he thought what he was doing was right?” Brauchler asked.
“He wasn’t considering right or wrong,” Gur said.
Holmes’ purchase of the cell phone stun gun, Brauchler mentioned as another topic.
It was discussed, but not recorded in the notes or report, Gur said.
Brauchler asked about Holmes’ attempts to meet people on after his break-up with his girlfriend.
It was discussed, but not recorded in the notes or report, Gur said.
Brauchler asked about another website Holmes used to try to meet people.
It was discussed, but not recorded in the notes or report, Gur said.
“You agree that he started ” in order to meet people? Brauchler asked.
“He posted for it, yes, to have relationships,” Gur said. He wanted to meet someone to “replace Gargi,” she said.
“You testified that this is a guy who was withdrawing from society. … These are efforts he is making to stay engaged with society,” Brauchler said.
“Other experts like you would have considered that, too,” Brauchler said.
“They might,” she said.
Brauchler handed Gur documents which he described as demonstrating Holmes’ efforts to develop social relationships over the internet.
“This was an effort to cling to normalcy,” Gur said.
“You would agree that someone’s efforts to set up accounts with different relationship-building websites” is relevant to an analysis of whether or not someone is withdrawing from society? Brauchler asked.
Gur said they might be relevant in a minor way.
“I do not confront people that I interview,” Gur said. “I’m not a prosecutor. I try to obtain the information to the best of my ability and put it in a context.”
“What did you ask him about regarding these memberships [and] these websites?” Brauchler asked.
Holmes was “clinging to maintaining more normalcy,” Gur said. She knew he was setting up different accounts on websites in order to try to meet people, she said.
“None of that appears in any of your notes or reports,” Brauchler said.
Brauchler noted that Holmes posted “‘Will you visit me in prison?'” on the different accounts.
It was discussed, but not recorded in the notes or report, Gur said.
Did you explore his alternate e-mail account? Brauchler asked.
Gur said she does not remember.
Gur wrote in her June report that Holmes was schizophrenic and insane, Brauchler said.
“Correct,” Gur said.
Gur met with Holmes again in November 2013 after producing the report in June, and took about one and a half pages of notes, Brauchler said. She then met with him in August 2014, Brauchler said.
“And you did not generate a report at that time, either?” Brauchler asked.
“Correct,” Gur said.
Holmes told Gur at that meeting he considered trying to flee after the attack, Brauchler said.
“He tells you that he didn’t consider that killing other people or wounding them could cause them pain,” Brauchler said.
“Correct,” Gur said.
But Holmes took Vicodin so he would not experience pain in case of police contact, Brauchler said.
Yes, Gur said.
The testimony is ongoing.
— — —
4:54 p.m.
Disorganized thinking and the inability to organize thoughts is one of the most prominent symptoms of schizophrenia, Brauchler said, reading from one of Gur’s books.
The notebook “is intentionally organized, correct?” Brauchler asked.
“Within the delusional system, it is,” Gur said. She said it is not organized in the way a very intelligent graduate student would organize a notebook, she said and began to read from it. Brauchler attempted to stop her but she kept reading, until Samour stopped her.
Brauchler summarized different sections in the notebook, noting that there are no grammatical errors, almost every word is spelled correctly, every word is legible and no sentences stop abruptly.
“Correct,” Gur said.
Holmes wrote out, in complete sentences, his self-diagnosis, Brauchler noted.
“Correct,” Gur said.
“He finishes up with why he is going to embrace the longstanding hatred of mankind,” Brauchler said, possibly quoting part of the notebook.
When Holmes captioned a paragraph or section, all of the writings in that section related to the particular topic, Brauchler noted.
Holmes’ notebook included analyses of different targets, Brauchler noted.
One of the drawbacks Holmes noted with certain locations was the ease with which people could flee, Brauchler said.
Brauchler asked if Holmes told Gur why he bought the handcuffs to lock the door in case people tried to flee.
It was discussed, but not recorded in the notes or report, Gur said.
Holmes listed in chronological order the therapists he saw during his life, Brauchler noted. Holmes then wrote about his relationship with each therapist.
“He finishes up with, ‘Embrace the hatred, a dark knight rises,'” Brauchler read from the notebook.
“Nowhere does he just stop fully analyzing whatever section” he was writing about, Brauchler noted.
Correct, Gur said.
Brauchler then brought up the subject of Holmes’ jail writings.
“Would you agree with me, doctor, that those writings take place on lined notebook paper?” Brauchler asked.
Yes, Gur said.
The writing is clear, grammatically correct and spelling is also correct, Brauchler noted.
“There are no incomplete sentences … There are no made up words,” Brauchler said.
“Correct,” Gur said.
Brauchler then read a passage from Gur’s book on schizophrenia in which she wrote people with schizophrenia may have difficulty planning and completing even the most basic tasks.
“You know, the psychotic process is a fluid process,” Gur said.
Holmes never had difficulty with self-care, Brauchler noted.
Brauchler listed symptoms from the schizophrenia, including cognitive deficits. But Holmes did extensive planning, Brauchler noted.
“Within his delusional system,” Gur said.
Brauchler returned to Gur’s interviews with Holmes, including her November 2014 meeting with Holmes.
“You did not write a report [for that meeting] did you?” Brauchler asked.
She incorporated that meeting in her report, but did not note it, she said.
Gur wrote in her notes that Holmes told Dr. Fenton, a psychiatrist at CU, that killing people would increase his self-worth, Brauchler noted.
“You know that doesn’t appear” in their notes? Brauchler asked.
“Correct,” Gur said.
“It’s not consistent either with his stated purpose to everyone … that he wanted to withhold information” in order to avoid getting locked up? Brauchler asked.
“He also describes himself to you as ‘rationally insane,'” Brauchler noted.
Yes, Gur said.
He tried to create a website called “rational insanity,” Brauchler noted.
Holmes told her more about the shadows, according to Gur’s notes, Brauchler said.
“This process, this planning that took place over two and a half months, you would not describe the defendant’s efforts as one that was committed in a hasty or impulsive manner?” Brauchler asked.
“In a compelled manner, not impulsive,” Gur said.
“You believe that he had the capacity to for the conscious objective to kill people?” Brauchler asked.
“I believe that within his pervasive delusional system” he had the ability to plan and execute the plan, she said.
Brauchler asked the question again.
“He had the capacity, and I say within his delusions,” she said.
“How do you define capacity?” Gur asked. “It was in a distorted perception of reality.”
“I do not believe the information that we have reviewed … are meaningful without considering his delusion,” Gur said.
“The question I’m asking you though is … he had the ability to be aware that the conduct he was engaging in was practically certain to lead to the death of others, yes?”
“Yes,” Gur said.
And he was aware that the attack created a “grave risk” of death for him? Brauchler asked.
King objected, and Samour asked King and Brauchler to approach.
The testimony is ongoing.
— — —
5:17 p.m.
Samour overruled the objection and Brauchler carried on with his questioning of Gur.
“You believe that the defendant had … the capacity to knowingly engage in conduct that created a grave risk of death to a person other than himself?”
“I don’t think so,” Gur said.
He knew that killing people was against the law? Brauchler noted.
“Correct,” Gur said.
Holmes texted Hillary Allen on July 8 to tell her to stay away from him because he “didn’t want to hurt her,” Brauchler said.
“Yes,” Gur said.
Brauchler ran through Holmes’ knowledge of consequences, planning strategies and surrender to police.
“That he attempted to divert emergency response teams and police to his apartment so that he could continue to kill people in the theater,” Brauchler said.
“Yes,” Gur said.
Brauchler then ticked off the lengths to which Holmes went to set up explosives in his apartment, including the manufacture of different chemicals.
“He told Dr. Reid that killing people is considered evil by everyone,” Brauchler said. “Mr. Holmes said, ‘If the other person doesn’t want to die that is evil if you’re going against somebody’s wishes.'”
Brauchler further noted that Holmes told Dr. Reid the people in the movie theater did not want to die.
Samour asked Brauchler how much more time he would need to cross examine Gur.
“A few days,” Brauchler joked. “That’s not even funny anymore.”
Brauchler guessed he would need 20 more minutes.
Samour dismissed the jury for the day.
Samour then discussed how much more time both sides need. Closing arguments will likely be on Tuesday.
Matthew Nussbaum: 303-954-1666, mnussbaum@ or MatthewNussbaum
